Wednesday, March 01, 2006

More Economics

It turns out that Akeeyu wrote the initial post about Dr. Spar that I was thinking of. Thanks for reminding me, Akeeyu! Would you believe I actually did look over your recent blog posts, more than once even, but just didn't see it?

And in related news, Dr. Spar has given an interview on Bloomberg. Beth (fka "Prop Your Hips Up") has written up a post on this interview, so I won't deal with it at length here. I just feel the need to make a few snide points about this exchange:
Interviewer: What's going to be possible in five or 10 years?

Dr. Spar: First of all, the technology is just becoming better so there are people who have more and more advanced cases of infertility that will be treated successfully with IVF, with a technology called ICSI (intracytoplasmic sperm injection), which basically allows sterile men to produce children by taking a single sperm (and injecting it directly into the egg).

What's really going to come across is genetic engineering. We now have a growing business and technology for couples to take the embryos they produce at the eight-cell stage, to take one cell out of that embryo, to analyze it for genetic flaws and then choose which of the embryos to implant. It's very easy to see the potential for what some people have called the "genetic supermarket."

Some uses of this technology are nothing short of miraculous. People who carry genes for things like Tay-Sachs or cystic fibrosis can select for healthy embryos. Where we get worried is when people start using the same technology to produce blond-haired babies or blue-eyed babies.


POINT: If a man is absolutely sterile, meaning that he produces no sperm, I don't think ICSI is going to help at all. Male factor is not an issue for us (that we know of, yet), but my limited knowledge in the area coupled with just a bit of common sense tells me that ICSI is for when the little guys aren't "strong enough." Which, I guess, is a form of sterility, but Dr. Spar was being fairly unclear. ProjGen or someone else dealing with MFI - can you shed some light on this?

POINT: She implies that ICSI is the only new technology out there to help "people who have more and more advanced cases of infertility."

POINT: Couples who analyze embryos at the eight-cell stage generally do so in order to determine which ones will have the greatest likelihood of implantation leading to a successful pregnancy. Granted, what she said technically means the same thing as what I just said, but her words imply that the couples make a value judgment on their potential children, choosing those that are less "flawed" and therefore would make for more desirable offspring. Oh, and this reminds me...

POINT: In IVF, the doctor transfers the embryo(s) to the uterus. The doctor does not implant the embryos. The embryos have to find their own way to the uterine lining and implant themselves there, if they can. If doctors could do the implanting part, first-time IVF success rates would skyrocket.

POINT: I don't see many infertile couples choosing for sex, much less hair or eye color. Perhaps fertiles (such as yourself, Dr. I Adopted My Third So I Could Have A Little Girl) think along those lines, and if they want to subject themselves to the financial strain (not to mention the physical psychological consequences) of IVF just to get their dream child, well, really, I just have no words.

Did I say I had just "a few" points? Oops.

At 5:16 PM, March 01, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone dealing with male infertility I can comment on the ICSI question. I'm not sure what the technical definition of "sterile" is but a person who suffers from azoospermia can still have gametes used via ICSI to fertilize an egg. (I know b/c it B"H worked for us.)

 
At 8:24 PM, March 01, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

Technically sterile men can be sterile as a result of a vasectomy, failed vas reversal, varicocele, or some other blockage, but still have healthy sperm. That's where ICSI is most useful, actually - the healthy sperm can be aspirated, then injected into the egg.

I don't think anyone is yet choosing for sex or hair colour, etc., but I think there is a medical and ethical concern (as there should be) that at some point, some clinic out there is going to provide that option to their clients. Has anyone actually selected OUT embryos with genetic disorders? I've only heard anecdotal evidence of people having PGD tests, usually AFTER having had multiple failed IVFs. I guess it's possible, and done, but it's an expensive procedure that in itself could damage the embryo.

And anyone who is being treated (and passes herself off) as an expert in a field, and then uses flat out incorrect terminology (implant instead of transfer) just burns my butter!

 
At 8:26 PM, March 01, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

I meant I guess it's possible to select out a genetically damaged embryo, not that "I guess it's possible" to have a PGD! ;)

 
At 9:07 PM, March 01, 2006, Blogger x said...

we are male factor (vas reversal) . They can pull a few weak young sperm through microsurgery so it might be possible. At the same time though, with 300,000 sperm that don't swim - that feels pretty sterile. Hubbie's sperm is so weak it couldn't penetrate an egg, not to mention the antibodies. We are doing ICSI, just about to get started on round 1.

I have never heard of this doctor before and I am glad I haven't. Sometimes I'm grateful to live in a town too small for cable.

 
At 1:20 AM, March 02, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Has anyone actually selected OUT embryos with genetic disorders?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, Projgen, but I think this is actually the other important use of PGD -- where the parents know they have a deadly genetic mutation of some kind (tay sachs, cystic fibrosis, etc.) and are looking for an embryo without it. It wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with odds of implantation vs. miscarriage, but of passing down the disease to a child.

 
At 1:23 AM, March 02, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Um, yeah, also I just noticed that's what Spar said. I'm guessing I did misunderstand your question, PG. :-)

 
At 7:36 AM, March 02, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

seph - i also caught that that was the kindest interpretation of what Spar said, but given the context of this interview and others (and you ca't really claim she was mirrepresented, since almos everything is in her own words!) there was a strong implication that couples also select out things like deafness, predisposition to obesity, lower intelligence, and ahwole bunch of other things that I'm not even sure our technology can do (yet).

Jenny - The "Dr." is for her degree in economics, not a medical degree, so you can at least rest easy that she won't be up in your privates anytime soon. At least, not physically speaking.

And everyone dealing with MFI, thanks for educating me about it! :)

 
At 1:32 PM, March 02, 2006, Blogger miriamp said...

Maybe I also don't understand the question, but I have pseudo-relatives (relatives of relatives) undergoing IVF right now because they are both carriers for Cystic Fibrosis, and just watched their niece die of it. So, yes, each and every embryo is being tested for CF, and they're only using the ones without it.

 
At 1:32 PM, March 03, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

>POINT: I don't see many infertile >couples choosing for sex, much less >hair or eye color.

Please review your earlier post:
http://ovariesonstrike.blogspot.com/2006/01/and-yet-still-i-dream.html

 
At 2:49 PM, March 03, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Given that the only chance we have of conceiving is through IVF, we considered PGD and would have used it to choose the sex. For us, we figured, IVF is so expensive that a lot of people that are successful once, don't go through it again, why not have what we want? But we couldn't justify the cost for mainly using it for choosing the sex and then secondarily using it to determine abnormalities. It just didn't seem justifiable.

 
At 5:10 PM, March 03, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Wow Anon, that was pretty harsh. You also seem to have a reading comprehension problem, or at least some difficulty distinguishing between a person's desires and her actions. Considering I'm nowhere near IVF yet, it seems totally disingenuous to imply that I'm a hypocrite in this area.

Besides, I didn't say "no" infertile couples use PGD to select for sex, or that they/we shouldn't. I said that I don't see many doing it. You know, in realiy, as opposed to in Dr. Spar's dream world (where, again, it's empowering for a fertile woman to adopt her third child just so she can have a little girl).

Statia, believe me, I can understand the temptation. I hope that, in the end, all your dreams come true anyway. (Well, at least those dreams that haven't already been dashed to pieces on the rocks...)

 
At 10:54 AM, March 05, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry RB ... I didn't mean to be harsh - I'm just a transferring my own bitterness onto others.

 

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