The Search Continues
I almost titled this post "The Search For Spock," but then I realized that the rabbi we are looking for: (1) need not be a kohen, and (2) also need not be dead and then brought back to life - in fact, probably should not be. Logic would be good, though.
Aaaaaaaaanyway. I finally spoke with Rabbi V on Monday evening. Ezra spoke to him first actually, but for just a moment when he (Ezra) picked up the phone, and not about the topic at hand. I then spoke with Rabbi V for about five minutes, first re-introducing myself (I had had a few interactions with him a few years ago and thought he might remember me) and then telling him, briefly, our problem. He sounded receptive to helping us out, and I started to bring up specific concerns. He heard that our RE appointment is over a month away and suggested a contact to help us "jump the list"; I refused and instead started to bring up specific testing concerns.
Rabbi V didn't have much time to talk and told me to call again early next week, but in the few responses he did have (regarding my preliminary PCOS diagnosis and my concern about the permissibility of a semen analysis for Ezra)...well, they worried me a bit. I can't really put my finger on why, and it could have been only that the conversation was rushed (to be fair, he didn't know why he was calling me when he did, and so couldn't plan for a certain amount of time set aside for us). Still, I'm concerned. I have since heard from someone on the A TIME boards that, as of several years ago, Rabbi V had refused to work with at least one couple on IF issues, but it was unclear whether it was because of Rabbi V's possible inexperience in the area, or some personal issue with the couple, or something else entirely. Whatever the case, it's starting to worry me, almost enough to outweigh the benefit of having had prior positive interactions with Rabbi V.
Several people from the A TIME boards have recommended another rabbi, who I shall temporarily refer to as Rabbi W (I'd better not add more than three rabbinic candidates to this list, eh?). Rabbi W lives in a somewhat distant city - not too much farther than Rabbi V, but not somewhere I'm likely to ever meet him in person, either. Beyond the recommendations from people I don't know, and the fact that he is listed on A TIME's rabbi page (whereas Rabbi V is not), I know nothing else about Rabbi W. I can't decide whether to try to contact him or, to be honest, what I would say.
I am also considering contacting our synagogue's rabbi (hereinafter Rabbi A) for his opinions of Rabbis V and W and/or his recommendations of other rabbis. One big advantage is that, unlike the A TIME people and others who have made suggestions, he knows us (or at least the relevant aspects of us) fairly well.
But there are a few concerns here. We have never made it clear to Rabbi A that we are dealing with infertility, or even that we are actively trying to have a baby. Our community has a considerable number of childless coupels our age, and it is possible (if not likely) that many of them are (temporarily) childless by choice. While I have a decent relationship with Rabbbi A, Ezra does not interact with him one-on-one very often. With Rabbis V and W (or just about anyone else), I can explain the situation without fear of making Ezra uncomfortable, because it is unlikely that the other party will ever encounter my husband, or draw the connection, unless we want him to. But with Rabbi A, the connection will be obvious, and Ezra will see him on a regular basis for years to come. While such a thing, to be honest, would not bother me all too much, Ezra is a fairly private person and I am pretty sure this would make him uncomfortable. Finally, I am worried about offending Rabbi A, either if he suggests a certain rabbi (dare I say "Rabbi X"? - nah) and we make a different choice, or if he suggests himself (something we know we are not comfortable with for a variety of reasons, thoguh on the other hand this is a very remote possibility).
At what point do we become committed to one rabbi over another? At what point do their responses become practical and binding rather than theoretical? And at what point did I sign up for all of this headache and heartache?
Labels: Judaism
posted by Robber Barren at 1:28 PM
comments (8)
I wouldn't go to Rabbi A if you think it would make your husband uncomfortable.
I'd also be reluctant about proceeding with this first rabbi if he is already making you feel uneasy. But are you already committed to his psak since you have spoken to him about your problem? Someone once told me that I should have other people ask questions for me, or, I should ask the rabbi a "theoretical" question rather than ask for a specific decision, and either option saves me from being bound to follow his decision.
I don't have a sense of where you fall out on the Orthodox spectrum, or who you would be comfortable with. My first rav was a haredi from Monsey but as I said, I am concerned about going to him now. He was very knowledgeable so it's a shame. The second rabbi we consulted with was more Modern Orthodox from PUAH. In both cases, I was given some leniencies, as was a friend of mine who is also older. I have heard that the rabbis really soften up for us old ladies, since we are so desperate, but that they are sometimes slower to give heters for young couples.
Good luck to you. I know how hard this is to navigate by yourself. But you will find the right rabbi and once you do, you'll be so relieved!
I have heard that the rabbis really soften up for us old ladies, since we are so desperate, but that they are sometimes slower to give heters for young couples.
I'm not allowed to be young and desperate? Since when?
I think, unless you got farther than I think in the first conversation, that you're probably not bound by anything Rabbi V said yet. If I were you, if I was going to talk to him again, like Wessel I would be very careful to say that this is an exploratory, theoretical conversation, that you're still in the process of trying to find a rabbi whom both you and Ezra are comfortable working with, and that -- if he's open to it -- you'd like to hear how he generally approaches this situation before you ask for a personal psak.
And then I would try to pay careful attention to what is making you uneasy: is it his attitude to infertility vs. halacha, his sensitivity or empathy, the sense that he is likely to have some major disagreements with you down the road... what?
But I have to say, if it were me I might not try again just on the report that someone else had difficulty working with him. You don't need any more roadblocks in this process than necessary.
I was lucky in that I had multiple confirmations that my rabbi was a good person to work with. He's widely respected as a posek on T"H and other things, and many people I know, trust and admire are his students. My only doubt was whether he was an expert on infertility, and a few comments from other people - together with the referral from our former rabbi, who is from a very different part of the religious world - erased that doubt.
In all my interactions with him, both before and after infertility, he's shown a striking ability and willingness to see things from our perspective, to step outside the accepted way of looking at things and realize there's a time to go out on a halachic limb. For me that was crucial, and I think I knew that very early on, although I might not have been able to articulate it.
I guess some of my urging that you try him comes from the hope that you would be given all the same leniencies I was. :) But to you some other aspect of feeling comfortable might be more important than the specific rulings you get. Some of the recommendations from Atime sound like they might work out fine.
And keep in mind that you're not locked in to Rabbi V or anyone else forever, so other than some delay and aggravation, it doesn't hurt to go with your gut and try someone out. If he gives you a specific psak, yes, you'd be stuck for that instance, but if you're consistently coming away uncomfortable and unhappy you could find someone new for any questions after that. With infertility there's (un)fortunately a chance to re-ask the same question nearly every month...
Mindy, maybe it depends how much leeway there is in your circle? For example, if you know a semen analysis is only permitted via collection condom, no matter what, there's a lot less to ask.
In our case, however, the SA psak depended on a whole bunch of things: how long we'd been trying, what order the doctors wanted to do the tests, how aggravating the method turned out to be, how much trouble our insurance was giving us with it, etc. etc. I think we called the rabbi two or three times just for that one question.
Then there was IUI before mikvah, selective reduction, whether different procedures made me a niddah, discarding embryos... again, if you know the ruling on these issues is always the same no matter what your individual circumstances, there's nothing much to ask. We didn't have to ask these questions so often, but we knew the potentially different answers we might get could make a huge difference in our lives.
Erm. Good luck? :-D
You didn't sign up, I believe it was your mother's, mother's, mother's, ... mother's, mother. Or was it her mother?
rb, the only reason I would suggest you talk to Rabbi A would be if you have a strong sense of community with your rabbi. We wanted our Rabbi A to know what was going on because we wanted him to be prepared for anything that might come up, and we wanted to know we had a support system in place (someone we could turn to for spiritual support if a cycle failed, for example).
It was very emotionally helpful to us to know that our spiritual leader knew what was going on with us. If you're going to be using another rabbi for fertility halacha, then the only reason to tell your Rabbi A really would be if you want that spiritual support at your "home base."
Good luck; I hope you find a rav that you and your husband can be comfortable with and trust. It's so important to have that comfort level.
Good luck! As if dealing with infertility itself isn't enough...oy! I hope you find the one you are looking for.
I don't think that you're ever bound to the p'sak of any rabbi these days (we don't have a Sanhedrin, the rabbinic link from Moses has been broken, etc.). You are bound to halacha and G-d's definition of morality ... rabbis are a useful crutch to provide the relief of knowledge and education from doubts and uncertainties. That's all.
Speak up!
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