Friday, May 12, 2006

Drowning

I went to the mikvah this week, for the first time since we started actual fertility treatment. (I don't count the metformin.) I'm usually very matter-of-fact about my preparation and tevilah; I think the mitzvah and associated hstory are beautiful in theory, but somewhat burdensome in practice. This time, even though I was running around from place to place all day and was stressed (and hungry) by the time I made it to the mikvah, I had resolved to make some kind of effort to infuse this immerision with a level of spirituality.

And then I get there, and discover that the attendant on duty is pregnant. Quite visibly so.

Okay, deep breath, I can handle this. She escorts me to my prep room. I turn on the faucet to fill the tub, remove my makeup, get undressed. Give myself a solid look in the mirror and slip into the pleasantly warm water. Play with the washcloth for a few minutes. Try to relax. Maybe I even talk to God a little, but it's hard to tell, since God's not talking back. I slowly wash each part of my body, concentrating on the skin and trying not to think of the malfunctioning organs beneath the surface. I contemplate the red dots scattered across my belly; it seems that all healing must come from without, not within. I stand up, shower, rinse my hair well and comb out the tangles. I give my feet a careful once-over, examine myself in the mirror, and look myself in the eye. This can work. This isn't a failure; it's a new chance.

I call for the mikvah attendant. As I wait for her to arrive, I sit back down, rest my forehead in my hands, and focus on the good things to come that evening: a warm dinner and a kiss from my husband (probably not in that order). The attendant knocks on the door connecting my prep room to the nearest immersion pool. I focus on her eyes. She warns me that the water here is on the cool side and asks me whether I'd like to go across the hall where the pool is a little warmer. I decline, thinking that the cooler water may be just the kind of refreshment I need. I've entered on the far side of the room from the stairs down into the water, and so the attendant and I have to swap places along the narrow floorspace.

The mikvah lady gestures at her belly and giggles: "This gets harder as I get bigger." A look of shock, I'm sure, falls across my face, and I bite my lower lip before I can start crying. Silently, staring at the floor, I hold out my hands for her to inspect and slip my feet out of their paper slippers for her approval. I turn, remove my robe, step into the water, and immerse in my tears.



This morning I had my fourth ultrasound and blood draw of the week, which makes five in eight days for this cycle (and we're not done yet). You'll be disappointed, but not probably not surprised, to hear that I still have no measurable follicles on either side. The promising 10 mm buds on the right are still just over 10 mm. I'm sure my estrogen level is equally pathetic. And I'm sure I'll be back at the clinic bright and early on Sunday for another peep show.



Update (1:45 PM): Nurse Space Cadet this time. E2 is up to 65.3; LH and progesterone are still low. Continue at 100 units tonight and tomorrow. Back in at 7:15 AM Sunday. I convinced her to schedule my Tuesday appointment now, so I managed to snag a 7:15 slot for that day as well. Nurse Spacey also said that they would give this cycle "another couple of weeks" before calling it a bust...

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At 12:32 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger EJW said...

Oh honey, that sounds so hard. You handled it beautifully, though.

 
At 1:35 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Mindy, if you look through my archives you'll note that after I did not ovulate on my first round of Clomid, I began the second round without inducing a bleed. Then, after that round busted as well, I went directly on birth control for a month. So I was not niddah from before my first Clomid dose until the start of this cycle.

Also, they have been slowly increasing my dosage over the course of this week, and I am under the impression that my medical team will continue to do so for at least another week before scrapping the cycle.

 
At 2:08 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

I remember my horror on getting to mikvah one month and finding the attendant was 8 months pregnant.

She was my neighbor/casual friend, too.

Hope you won't be going back there anytime soon.

 
At 2:35 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger DD said...

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. It's hard to keep believing that God still listens when we feel imperfect or abandoned. I hope that soon you will find that he has not only heard, but granted, all your prayers.

 
At 2:43 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger x said...

Mikvah sounds like a very amazing experience. I am sorry that it had to be so hard.

I am holding out hope for you on this cycle. The blood draws are awful, I am sorry there have been so many.

 
At 2:55 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

Another couple of weeks??

From what I've read they have to give a high enough dose from the very beginning of the cycle. That's when the follicles are recruited to grow. Increasing the dose later in the cycle isn't as effective, at least not to increase the number of follicles.
The problem is, they don't have a good way of knowing at which dose to start the first time.

ART is trial and error medicine, much to all our frustration!

 
At 6:00 PM, May 12, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Lut, that protocol may be right for some women...but not for everyone (including me). I have many recruited follicles, they just aren't growing. This "low and slow" method is recommended for many PCOS patients, and does, in fact, work in many situations. Fo example, Ornery is now pregnant with twins conceived during a cycle where her ovaries barely responded for fifteen days, and then her estrogen shot up from 39 to 329 in five days, and then to 606. I don't have the exact count, but I think her trigger shot was somewhere around CD 21 (stim day 19). I'm only on stim day 11.

 
At 12:26 AM, May 13, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry that your spiritual sanctuary turned out to be such a painful reminder...I am trying to inure myself to these experiences because everywhere I go, the pregnant bellies are there...

 
At 9:45 AM, May 13, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robbie, that sounds like such a difficult experience. I hope that you are able to reclaim the thoughts of it being a new chance, rather than dwelling on the thoughts of the pregnant attendant.

It sounds like your dr's are trying very hard to make sure that your ovaries respond to this cycle, rather than calling it done and telling you to wait for the next one. With any luck, you will respond the way Ornery did, and that will give you a great deal of hope that finally your body is doing what it is supposed to do.

 
At 3:42 PM, May 13, 2006, Blogger Thalia said...

Hoping that your ovaries get their act together soon. You handled taht difficult mikvah experience with great grace. Perhaps Gd was speaking to you that way.

 

Speak up!




Wednesday, April 26, 2006

The Mind Churns, The Heart Yearns

Dear, sweet, sassy Akeeyu needs your love. She and Sam found out today that Good Embryo died, probably about a week ago. I'm sure most of you have heard already, but just in case...



We finally had a conversation with Rabbi Spock last night. Well, more like I had a conversation, while Ezra listened in on an extension and made faces when I said something embarrassing. To him, I mean. Because there's nothing at all about this fertility treatment business that's embarrassing to me. Of course.

Short answers,* for those who care: (1) Schedule the HSG for day 2 or 3 of shiva neki'im (probably day 8-ish of my cycle, which I think will fall over a weekend, which may not be doable), switch to colored underwear for the rest of the seven days, and skip all remaining bedikot except for one on day 7 (cycle day 12 or 13 - are you still with me?) (2) Injections on Shabbat - no problem. (3) Well, one quasi-problem. Don't use alcohol pads, unless you can verify they are synthetic material. Instead, pour rubbing alcohol over the injection site and wipe it away with a tissue. (4) Ezra can give me the HCG shot, if necessary, when I am still niddah, if I am unable to do so myself and we cannot ask another woman to do so for me. "Cannot ask" apparently includes "we don't want to tell our friend the nurse that we're dealing with these issues." If he does this while I'm niddah, he should try to minimize contact with me, and wear latex gloves. Kinky! (5) IUI post-mikvah: no problem. Follow the semen-procural procedural hierarchy as discussed before. (6) If we find ourselves needing IUI before I go to the mikvah, it can be done, but call back for details.

Well, that wasn't so bad, was it?

Injectibles lesson and consult tomorrow. Five thousand hours of work to do and a shortened workday in which to do it. At least it'll be distracting...

* These are the answers to our questions. Please do not accept them as solutions for your own situation, and be sure to read the disclaimer in my sidebar.

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At 11:12 PM, April 26, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Poor Akeeyu. I can't imagine their pain. I wish they didn't have to know it.

Good luck with the injectibles lesson, and with all of the fun of collection! It sounds like your rav is really a good resource for you.

 
At 11:01 AM, April 27, 2006, Blogger electriclady said...

Answers! We love answers! Good luck with the injectibles lesson today.

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I'm curious--what is the reason that alcohol pads are a no-no during Shabbat?

 
At 11:57 AM, April 27, 2006, Blogger Jen said...

My heart goes out to Akeeyu. There's been so much pain in the blogosphere lately. I hope this sad streak ends soon.

I'm glad you finally got some answers from Rabbi Spock. Good luck with your lesson and consult tomorrow!

 
At 1:43 PM, April 27, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I'm curious--what is the reason that alcohol pads are a no-no during Shabbat?

One of the Shabbat prohibitions is laundering, and as a related task, squeezing or wringing liquid from a natural fiber piece of material(e.g., cotton, wool, linen) is prohibited.

So a cotton pad soaked in alcohol would be a problem, but a tissue would (might?) not.

 

Speak up!




Tuesday, March 14, 2006

Infertility and Rabbis

Yesterday's New York Times had an article on rabbinical students at Yeshiva University getting some basic training in matters of infertility. Topics included "everything from the shelf life of sperm samples to the mechanics of intracytoplasmic fertilization to the ethics of pre-implantation genetic diagnosis." The article mentioned a few of the more complicated situations that may arise:
"Let's say a woman has a fully functional womb but her eggs are not viable," said Rabbi Kenneth Brander of Yeshiva, the course instructor. "Her sister says, 'Take some of my eggs.' Who's the aunt and who's the mother?" He went on. "What is the relationship between son and father where conception happened posthumously? Does the son say Kaddish for the father?" he asked, referring to the Jewish prayer for the dead.

If a couple has six girls and seeks fertility treatment to try for a boy, may they destroy a fertilized egg of the wrong gender? Can a husband in a divorce unilaterally destroy the couple's stockpile of frozen fertilized eggs?

"This is not like 'Star Trek' science," said Rabbi Brander, a dean at Yeshiva, which has the largest Orthodox rabbinical seminary in the country. "This is stuff that comes up every day. And if the rabbi doesn't understand reproductive technology he can't answer the questions effectively. If he doesn't know the Jewish law he can't answer them, either."

And, later:
There will always be some questions that elude easy answers. What if a single woman in her 20's wants to put off motherhood to pursue a career and seeks to freeze some of her eggs for later use? Jews are instructed to multiply fruitfully. Would a rabbi send the wrong message by condoning the postponement of starting a family? And what about the possibility of complications?

I'm glad YU is recognizing this need, and making it a public "thing." One concern, though: will these rabbis, with their general understanding of the basics in infertility, be appropriately deferential to the experts when confronted with actual questions? Or will a little knowledge prove to be too much of a good thing, leading these men to fancy themselves sufficiently educated to rule on any question? There's a lot of wiggle room in halacha, but without a thorough understanding of where all of it is, many people (rabbis included) tend to err on the side of being too strict. This can have disasterous effects in the realm of infertility, where a few wasted cycles or an omitted diagnosis can make the difference between getting effective treatment in a timely manner, or missing the boat entirely. Well, maybe it's not that dramatic, but it's not nothing either.

And here's an interesting new factoid (at least, to me) from that article:
Abdulaziz Sachedina, an expert on Islamic bioethics at the University of Virginia, said he often gets requests from imams and from Muslim doctors to parse some of the trickier issues.

Under Islamic law, for example, a couple may use a surrogate mother, but the husband must take the surrogate as a temporary wife. In the United States, Professor Sachedina said, "This is done very quietly."

Many thanks to OrthoMom for the link!



In other news, that weird cervical mucus has reverted to its usual boring milky-white watery-creamy self. I'm not sure what to make of that.

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At 11:07 PM, March 16, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fascinating. The religious conundrums take bioethics to a whole new level. Thanks for sharing it...

 

Speak up!




Thursday, March 09, 2006

Robbie Plans, and God Has a Field Day

My body is just not being very cooperative this first cycle. Today is Day 4 of my cycle, medically, but Day 5 halachicly, since I did a bedikah Sunday afternoon when the heavy spotting started. (See here if that made no sense to you...though if that's the case, the rest of this post will probably bore the hell out of you as well.) Given that my menstrual flow didn't really start until late Sunday night, I suppose it's not unreasonable that I can't get a hefsek today. But it's damn maddening.

My real "flow" only lasted through Monday. Well, maybe Tuesday, but that was borderline between menstruation and spotting. Yesterday was definitely spotting, at least as far as I could tell from the outside, and today there's pretty much nothing actualyl coming out...but every bedikah is bright red. Not a spot, or some crumbly residue. Soaked. Not brownish-red, or brick-red, or even background-of-this-blog red, but shockingly red. Murder red.

Now this is not so terrible, I suppose. My medical cycle is lagging a day behind, so I'm not even starting the Clomid until tomorrow night. I probably won't ovulate (Ha! as if) until medical day 13 or 14 or even 15 or 16, so I should still get to the mikvah comfortably within my fertility window. But getting a hefsek tomorrow means going to the mikvah on Shabbat. And...I've never done that before.

So, first of all, there's the crazy differences in preparation. I get home on Fridays very close to Shabbat as it is, and I just finished telling my boss on Tuesday that I no longer needed to leave work early on Fridays, so it'll be fun trying to back out of that one for next week. And I never, ever prepare at home. We have a bathtub, but I just don't use it. I like prepping at the mikvah. So now I'll have to build a whole prepare-at-home routine under nutty time pressure. OK, not terrible, though I have no idea how I'm going to swing the time off and actually getting my prep done and getting all the usual last-minute Shabbat stuff done.

I'm scheduled for a transvaginal ultrasound next Friday. My first ever. I'm pretty sure there are no halachic issues with a dildocam during the seven "clean" days, but it's on day seven, which may be trickier, and I really didn't want to have to worry about this the first time around. I will call Rabbi Spock over the weekend, I guess.

We're having dinner guests next Shabbat. And I usually go to shul Friday nights, so people will wonder where I am. I can say I decided to go to another shul, but that'll be sort of suspect, because why would I do that with guests coming home for dinner? And with Ezra still at our regular shul to bring home said guests? I don't want to just "stay home," because if I'm not there when Ezra arrives with the guests, people will ask questions. I suppose I could say I'm visiting a friend, but that is so incredibly out of character for me, plus I'd have to tell said friend what is going on so she knows to back up my story. And then, no matter what I do, there's the fact that all of the last-minute food-related stuff won't be done.

Did I say dinner guests? I must have forgotten to mention that one of said guests is actually a sleep-over guest for the weekend. He (yes, he) is a rabbi. So, duh, will probably be able to figure stuff out if we let even the tiniest thing slip. But he doesn't know about the infertility issues, and he's not always the most appropriate/discreet person, so I'm sure that as soon as he figures things out, he'll make some unintentionally hurtful remark. Plus, I...just...ugh, do I really need him knowing when I go to the mikvah? I generally would not mind, but he's going to be sleeping across the hall from me and Ezra!

Oh, that bathtub? In the guest bathroom, not the master bathroom. So I guess there's no way for him to not know what's going on, since I'm going to be prepping in his bathroom when he needs to be getting ready for Shabbat.

We can't change the dinner plans, I don't think, because then rabbi-houseguest (who is the guest of honor at that meal) will know, or at least suspect, what's up. We can't have him not-come, because, again, he'll know what's up. And I can't not go to the mikvah on Friday, because, um, baby. Or at least: chance of baby.

Well, I guess I could not go on Friday. Y'know, if I don't get a hefsek tomorrow or something.

It does not help that about seventeen other things in my life all started falling apart today too. I hope God is getting a good laugh out of all of this.

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At 3:49 PM, March 09, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Yeah, see, when I have a conflict like this it usually gets resolved by not getting a clean hefsek until Saturday anyway. Or Sunday.

But that is NOT going to happen to you! OK. Let's strategize. First thing is, you need to minimize anything there is to do before Shabbos besides mikvah prep. That means Ezra does all last minute food things, or you cut out all last minute things, or you get last minute things from the store. They will be happy to eat with you even if all the food is room temperature salads. I'm 100% positive.

Next, can you ask in advance if there's any way someone could open the mikvah for you before shabbos? It doesn't have to be the mikvah attendant - maybe even the cleaning staff, if you're willing to pay them. It would alleviate some of the unfamilarity, as well as the guest bathroom conflict. Although you'd have to cover for the fact that you're not home to light candles... hmm.

Third, please don't make yourself insane trying to think up a reason why you're missing or late. People use vague excuses all the time - emergency, helping out a neighbor, not feeling well - even if it has a huge hole in it, I think adults are usually wise enough to turn off the question mode in their heads when it hits a certain point. "Wonder where Mrs. X is - wait, it's night time - never mind, I don't need to know." If they're not wise, THEY are the ones who look stupid. Not you.

And finally, let's say they guess. You don't need to keep this a secret for the same reasons you're keeping infertility a secret. This is not anything to feel embarrassed or vulnerable about. This is a mitzvah that takes precedence over pretty much anything else, as well as a good, healthy part of your relationship, and if anyone is thinking about it's probably just because they're jealous. ;) So if the only thing holding you back from changing plans is that someone might guess why... personally, I'd say go for it.

Wish I had solutions to all seventeen other things, but let's see if any of these help first.

 
At 4:36 PM, March 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You could "go visit a friend" without giving the friend's name. The mikvah lady is your friend, right? So it's true.

Once you've cut out of work earlier than you expect your guest to arrive (earlier than Ezra will be home, right? yichud and all that. decide you're machimir, even if you aren't - it gives you more private prep time :) ), you can have the bathroom to yourself.

Or find out if you can do the tub soak, etc. in the morning, before work (go to bed early Thursday after having made most of Shabbos Wednesday night. your guests can deal).

And when you call to schedule your appt, ask the mikvah lady about the differences about going on Shabbos if you haven't asked the rabbi already. She may even have some good ideas about logistics or stories, or how to plan ahead around meals. But all that means calling her EARLY in the week, no procrastinating, y' hear?

{{{hugs}}} - and chill out; otherwise you'll be insane by then.

 
At 4:57 PM, March 09, 2006, Blogger Jen said...

I'm sorry that I can't help you out with your dilemma, as I am unaccustomed to all of this (though I am ever-so slowly learning, thanks to your blog and Google). All I can say is that I'm rooting for you, and hope that Clomid does the trick this cycle!

 
At 5:37 PM, March 09, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

Wow, that's complicated! I hope everything works out ok.

 
At 7:06 PM, March 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good luck with all of this!
Definitely find out about doing most of the preparation on Friday morning. That could make things much easier and less awkward (assuming you can have time then), and shouldn't be too much of an issue, I think.

 
At 7:07 PM, March 09, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

What persephone said! I had recently had to leave in the middle of Friday night davening to go to the mikvah, and show up late to our dinner hosts. I'm pretty sure those who actually thought about it knew what was going on, but most didn't even realize I wasn't around.

That said, I actually really enjoy immersing on Shabbat - no shower, no last minute prepping (I normally prep at home) wondering if I missed anything. It's just strip, dip and go! Piece o' cake ;) Aside from, y'know, all the Shabbat cooking, planning, preparing...

 
At 7:53 PM, March 10, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Well, I'm one who had to check out the link since your first sentence really made no sense to me. But, I didn't find the rest boring at all. Very interesting actually, and for me, educational. Thanks! Do hope it all works out for you... even if I don't fully understand it.

 
At 3:03 PM, March 11, 2006, Blogger Thalia said...

Goodness this does make things complicated, doesn't it. It seems that persephone has all the answers, so I hope you're feeling a bit happier about it. The main thing I wanted to say is, goodness you must have nosey friends if they're really going to press you for an answer to those questions. I'm glad someone else felt the same way.

 
At 1:04 AM, March 12, 2006, Blogger x said...

Wow, it is amazing how much religion complicates things. I am impressed at the support the jewish faith gives couples dealing with infertility, it's very encouraging.
I hope things start to simplify sooner than later. All the best with this cycle.

 

Speak up!




Thursday, February 09, 2006

Live Long and Prosper

So, apropos of just about nothing, besides the random firing of synapses in my brain (and an idle review of some earlier posts, including this one), I have decided to dub Rabbi V: Rabbi Spock. I mean, he is fairly logical, his tone is an appropriate combination of deferential and firm, and there are certainly times when I feel like all rabbis are from another planet. So let's see if the name sticks.

You like?

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At 5:29 PM, February 09, 2006, Blogger Jen said...

I like, I like! The 'V' in Rabbi V also reminds me of the hand salute Spock makes whenever he says, "Live long and prosper," so I feel it all ties together nicely.

I will, however, always have an image of Rabbi Spock with Vulcan ears and eyebrows.

 
At 5:10 PM, February 10, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

But can he draw up one eyebrow?

There's also that other Spock, dr. Spock, the child rearing expert. My parents had one of his books.

 

Speak up!




Wednesday, February 08, 2006

Midnight Masquerade

(What? A masquerade is a kind of a ball!)

Last night, around 11 PM, just as Ezra was finally convincing me that it was time to stop frittering away my precious sleeping hours and get into bed, the phone rang. "Who could be calling us this late?" Ezra wondered as he went to pick up the phone (of course, the portable phone that is supposed to live in our bedroom was nowhere near its cradle). Moments later I heard his returning footsteps, followed by, "Robbie? It's Rabbi V."

Considering my own procrastination in this area, I can't complain that it took him this long to return our call from Saturday night. Since we were both tired, we briefly considered asking him to schedule a group phone call for later in the week. We quickly and wisely concluded that we'd better take the opportunity presented and so within a few moments were we each on an extension and thus began our "theoretical discussion of halachic issues relating to fertility treatments."

The main thing that we took away from this phone call is that Rabbi V is a fairly practical and straightforward person. We told him how long we'd been trying to get me pregnant, and that I'd already had bloodwork indicating PCOS. He asked our ages and about my cycles. (It took a few minutes of back and forth for him to finally get that I don't have cycles.) He referred to sex as "lovemaking," which is more euphemistic than my prefered term of "intercourse" (or, well..."sex") but still far better than the dreaded "relations," which usually makes me wonder why my second cousins once removed need to be involved in our fertility adventures.

On more than one occasion Rabbi V stated that "we follow the doctors" when it comes to questions of which tests to perform before or during treatments. This was a major relief because I am just not comfortable taking anythign stronger than my current metformin without first verifying that Ezra is at least contributing his half to the cause. We discussed semen analysis specifically (though still in theoretical terms), and the rabbi ran down a hierarchical list of methods of procuring a sample. Apparently tops on the list is "collection condom with a hole." Next comes collection condom without a hole, followed by pulling out (yes! the rabbi actually said "pulling out!") and ejaculating into a cup. If the doctor is still not down with that option, then it's permitted to obtain a sample without intercourse but still "with the partner in the style of lovemaking." (I won't promise that this is an exact quote, but it's close.) All the way at the end of the list, apparently to be resorted too only if the wife is niddah, is masturbating alone, but even there should be an attempt to procure the sample without "manual masturbation" and without viewing pornography.

I wonder if a few artfully posed shots of myself would count as "pornography."

We also asked Rabbi V about his general views on donor egg and gestational surrogacy. (Silly idealistic me refuses to even consider that something may be wrong with Ezra's sperm, let alone the idea that something could be so wrong with them that a doctor would suggest donor sperm.) After reminding us that such questions would probably not arise, in the practical sense, for a long time (if ever), Rabbi V stated that there are many opinions permitting both of these options. Good enough for us, for now...all I was looking for was an assurance that he wasn't the "no donors, no surrogates, not ever" type.

General conclusion - we're going to work with Rabbi V. Which means it's time to bring our donations to his communal organization up to date...and to come up with a better alias for him. Any suggestions?

(Oh, and I'm still looking for design help...)

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At 2:38 PM, February 08, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Wow. Our rabbi only gave us two options (one from the top of that hierarchy, and one from the bottom)... not sure if he recognized that we were way too impatient to deal with this, or if he's just a little more liberal. I'm also not sure what in the heck "without manual masturbation" is supposed to mean. Using toes? Um... just by thinking? Does that work for men? :)

Regardless, I know the matter-of-fact approach went a long way to making me feel comfortable, and I hope it does for you too. I also very much like the sound of "we follow the doctors" -- that's a very promising sign for any questions that come up in the future!

If I can make a practical suggestion, you might want to get a couple extra of those condoms so he can try it on, on another day. The fit can be kind of weird, I guess because they're designed for medical purposes, rather than comfort like the ones at the drugstore. You might also want to ask the doctor's office if you can bring in the sample on any day you successfully collect it, rather than scheduling it for a particular date and time. No point in performance pressure and unfamiliarity making this any more difficult.

Also, this method is only going to work if you live close enough to get the sample to the office in time... I've heard of people renting a hotel room that morning (or for the whole night before), but I wouldn't assume you need to go that far unless Rabbi V says so.

And try not to worry too much about losing part of the sample. First of all, as long as the doctor knows you're using this method, he'll expect that. Second of all, this is not your last chance for a SA. If it seems like there might be a problem, the doctor will almost certainly have you repeat the test without the condom. And any time they do an IUI or IVF, they also run a mini-analysis.

My goodness, that was a lot of unsolicited advice. Please disregard any part that was inapplicable, unnecessary, or otherwise annoying. Persephone over and out.

 
At 4:43 PM, February 08, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

Congratulations! You've found a Rabbi and can now move on!!!!

You'll understand that I have no advice for you. ;-)

 
At 11:00 PM, February 08, 2006, Blogger Jen said...

"with the partner in the style of lovemaking."

I'm not sure why, but I can't stop giggling every time I read that sentence!

Very glad to hear that you're happy with Rabbi V.

 
At 12:59 PM, February 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I feel the same way about the use of "relations" to denote sexual intercourse! Too funny. Also, the rav we went to for these issues, who is very black hat but also known for being lenient, said no way to masturbation of any kind, we had to use a condom but that we did not have to poke a hole in the condom.

I'm glad that Rabbi V did not veto DE or DS right off the bat. I wonder, though, if it really came down to that, if he would give you a psak or if he would refer you to someone else. That is often a test of where a rav stands on an issue.

 
At 1:02 PM, February 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh, I forgot -- I wanted to reiterate some of what Persephone said and add a bit too. You get the condoms from your clinic, because they are special medical condoms, and be forewarned -- they look like they were made for elves! I'm serious, they are TINY! I was worried we were going to strangulate my poor DH's pecker. They are extremely difficult to put on and take a lot of practice. Definitely get extras and practice on another day when you are not stressed out and in a hurry.

 
At 1:10 PM, February 09, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

persephone - Advice is always welcome! Well, always, until I say otherwise. But for now, consider your advice welcome.

Prop - Next step is our first RE appointment, in about one week and two hours. I expect that following that we'll have a fairly decent battery of tests. Since my cycles are almost never spontaneous, we should be able to plan around the back-and-forth with rabbi and doctor, and not end up wasting a cycle while we debate methodology.

wessel - If we ever get to the point of needing DE, DS, or GS, we're going to plot out our questions very carefully before asking any rabbi, and then keep them in as theoretical terms as possible at first, following which we we tag "this year" or somesuch onto every single question, because damned if I'm going to be locked into a negative psak when I know there are other (valid) opinions out there.

 

Speak up!




Sunday, February 05, 2006

Ball's in His Court

Just so no one thinks I'm shirking my responsibilities, let it be known that we tried to call Rabbi V last night, he didn't answer, we left a detailed message on his machine, and we have yet to hear back from him.

Labels:

At 4:10 PM, February 06, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

That's so annoying!!! It's not like you need his advice before you can get the show on the road or anything. Aargh.

I hope he responds real soon.

 
At 4:21 PM, February 06, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Well, we can (and will, if necessary) have our first RE appointment without having spoken to Rabbi V first, but it will slow things down overall (for example, I could definitely go ahead with another round of blood tests, and I could probably schedule an HSG, but we wouldn't get a semen analysis without the rabbi's go-ahead, and I would be very wary of taking any meds without Ezra having had a S/A first.

 

Speak up!




Tuesday, January 24, 2006

Bouncing the Ball

Fine. You nagged me into submission. After sufficient procrastination, I called Rabbi V...to discover that he is leaving tomorrow on a trip and will return in a week. I arranged for us to call him the following weekend, Saturday or Sunday evening, and Ezra and I will both be on the phone to speak about some general issues (not ask any direct, binding questions). That's still almost two weeks before our first RE appointment.

Do I get a cookie now?

(Answer: no. My pants are too tight.)

Labels:

At 9:02 PM, January 24, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

Good for you!! Do we have to nag you to make that follow-up call? ;)

How about half a cookie? You don't want to deprive yourself completely!

 
At 9:50 PM, January 24, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Actually, there are no cookies at home, but I just stuffed myself with a terribly unhealthy dinner, and I may follow it up with a drink. Hey, the RE's probably going to ell me next month to go on some crazy macrobiotic vegan alcohol-free diet...may as well enjoy this crap while I can!

 
At 11:18 AM, January 25, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

YAY!!! YAY!!! YAY!!!

Do I get a cookie now?
Answer: No. Not until you make it through the follow up phone call! Make yourself a note, or put it on your calendar, get Ezra to nag - I mean remind you - and make yourself call Saturday night; if you *plan* on Sunday, it's easier to weasel out of.

 
At 2:28 PM, January 25, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

But...that's ten days from now! I can't wait ten days for a cookie!

Oh, wait, no cookie.

I need to find something new to blog about.

 
At 4:37 PM, January 25, 2006, Blogger Unknown said...

Way to go!!! Now promise you'll make the follow-up call, too.

And I think everyone needs a cookie now and then... though I seem to be enjoying them a bit too often. LOL!

 

Speak up!




Monday, January 23, 2006

Dropping the Ball

Remember this? Where Rabbi V told us to call "early next week?" Where "next week" would be vaguely defined as January 8-15, 2006. Which was, oh, um, actually two weeks ago?

Yeah, guess who hasn't called Rabbi V back?

It doesn't help that I'm generally phone-phobic. But I can't blame that entirely. Somewhere over that weekend, Ezra and I spoke about the idea of my bouncing some names off of Rabbi A, our shul rabbi. We decided that I would do that, and so I dropped Rabbi A an email asking for an appointment. I said it would be brief, but didn't mention a topic. He said he didn't have any free evenings for the week and ask if I could let him know what I wanted to speak about. I wrote back suggesting a date the follow week and stating that it was not something I was comfortable bringing up over email. He asked for a phone call, and so on, until we finally managed to meet about five days ago. I finally managed to communicate to him that the telling him the topic was the part I wanted to do in person, and so I did. The end result of our conversation was the Rabbi V was probably a good choice, and Ezra and I would benefit from meeting with him in person at least once, just to chat and get more comfortable with the whole situation.

Terrific! I thought to myself. We're going to be within an hour's drive of Rabbi V the weekend of January 28-29, maybe we can make an appointment for that Sunday! And then...I didn't call him. I couldn't make the phone call from work, and every evening something else came up that kept me out of the house until (what I thought was) far too late to call. I figured I'd do it Sunday (that is, yesterday). Except then Sunday got filled up with cleaning and cooking and entertaining, and I needed the better part of the evening to just decompress, and before I knew what was happening it was 10 PM and time had passed me by once again. That, and we started talking about not making our planned weekend trip next week, and so there'd be no in-person appointment anyway.

OK, that's not the whole story. The part I'm not telling you (except now I am) is that I'm embarrassed to call. I have a terribly habit of forgetting to call/write people, and then making excuses to myself, and then procrastinating more, and more and more and more until it gets to the point where I can't contact them without making a total ass of myself. The phone-phobia account for a large part of it, but I'm also just a procrastinator by nature, and largely socially inept, and always a touch too proud to ask for help when it's expected that I'll need it, such that I am forced to beg for favors and guidance long after I should have figured out how to do something on my own. (I'm not talking about Rabbi V here, just my personaility in general.)

Anyway, when I call him, what am I going to say? "Hi, we spoke nearly a month ago...I was supposed to call you back but I didn't...we're not even entirely sure we want to work with you...but we need to talk to someone before our appointment...I'm terribly irresponsible and generally feeling rebellious toward this entire system...hey, could you just magically figure out when we need you in the future and then YOU can call US?" I know I need to call him soon, ideally today or tomorrow (or the next day...), but I don't even know where we stand in working with him, and I just wish the whole problem would go away.

Labels:

At 11:52 AM, January 23, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

go. call. now. I've had to call rabbeim back and procrastinated for months (3 was the minimum) I am phone phobic as well and have very bad luck with them (despite being somewhat technology-saavy). just do it. then reward yourself (and hubby) for making the call *even if* you only reach his voicemail. a small bit of chocolate sounds like a nice reward system to me. they know we are scared to call and embarassed and all that. just go call him.

You don't know until you ask? ;)

[you are in my tefillah]

 
At 12:37 PM, January 23, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's this concept called "reframing". I've come across it in "working with difficult children" training - as in, don't negatively label them; "manipulative" is really "good at getting their needs met". I recently saw the same concept couched in IF terms on someone else's blog - "never" is merely "not yet" - but the application here is, it isn't "almost a month", it's "just a few weeks". Downplay the time lapse in your own mind so you don't trip over yourself apologizing (or wanting to) and then just call NOW before you manage to find another excuse!

And I think a not-so-small piece of chocolate sounds like a good reward :)

 
At 1:26 PM, January 23, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Wait - chocolate is supposed to be a reward? I'm not supposed to, like, eat it for lunch? Whoops.

I can't call now-now, because I am at work, but I will make every effort to call when I get home tonight, and once I do, I will order a book or two online as a reward. How's that for disproprotionate?

 
At 2:00 PM, January 23, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Wow, RB, we have waaaaay more in common than I realized.

I'd just add to what everyone else has said - you don't owe him any explanation for why some time has passed before you called him back. This is something you're doing for you, not him. For all he knows, in the interim you were hoping to get pregnant and not need his help anymore. Or your doctor's appointment got pushed off another 2 months. Whatever. I would just say "we spoke a few weeks ago," and go on from there.

As for the rest of it - most of that is perfectly appropriate to say to a rabbi! He's (hopefully) experienced in counseling, not just halacha, so he should be very used to people being open about their emotional issues with halacha. Who knows, maybe he'll even agree to call you every couple of weeks, just to see if you have any new questions you've been too uncomfortable to ask.

Let me know if I can help by kicking you offline tonight so you can make that call. ;)

 
At 4:32 PM, January 23, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, truthfully, he probably will not have any recollection that you were "supposed" to call him within a specified time frame, so I don't think you have anything to worry about. Just call that man! And good luck. :-)

 
At 8:53 PM, January 23, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

Self-sabotage - I went out for a couple of drinks after work and got home with speech so slurred that I can barely return a phone call to a friend, let alone call Rabbi V. Damn.

 
At 9:21 PM, January 23, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shame on you! Punishment - no more chocolate until you DO call. Not even for lunch. (Although, if you could find the will power for *that*, it should be easy enough to just steel yourself to CALL already!)

Would (this may sound dumb, but bear with me) it help any to write yourself a mock script? At least an outline of issues/points you feel need to be part of the conversation?

Or else, we can all nag you until you post that you *have* called. Might that be a useful incentive? (grin)

 
At 11:02 PM, January 23, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

Nagging could be good ;)

I, too, have a phone-phobia. I'm fine making calls at work that are work-related, but I fall apart if I have to call a rabbi, landlord, even friends. What about your husband? Hubby makes all our phone calls. I give him a list of questions/topics that I can think of before hand, and while he's on the phone, he'll sometimes relay information to me that he thinks I might want more clarification on.

So far, it works pretty well for us. Good luck!!

 
At 12:55 AM, January 26, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow, not really related but I feel better knowing that I am not the only one with phone-phobias.

I'm glad you made that call (finally) and now that you've done it once, it should be easier. Like riding a bike. Or going to the dentist. (er, not quite so sure on this last one)..

 
At 8:56 PM, January 28, 2006, Blogger miriamp said...

Well, at least for me, going to the dentist is easier once I've been once, because I get to make the next appointment while I'm there... no phone call required. (And it's so nice to hear about other phone-phobic people! Unfortunately, not only am I one, I'm married to one!) Believe it or not, I went many years before going to the dentist, and only finally went because I told my husband (who had a toothache and that was his reason for finally going): "Make me an appointment while you're there. My gums are in really bad shape."

Anyway, RB, glad you finally did it. See, now that wasn't so bad, was it? (Easy for me to say...)

 

Speak up!




Saturday, January 14, 2006

"Enjoy It While You Can"

If I hear that from another one of my new-mother friends even one more time, I just may have to commit murder.

I know, I know. Grass. Other side. Greener. Fine. I'm sure babies are a pain and a half, and I still reserve the right to complain about swollen pregnancy ankles and 2 A.M. feedings and cranky babies with the sniffles who just don't want to be put down...but for now all I can think about is how I don't have any of those things. Yeah, I do appreciate that (for now) we can pretty much do what we want, be it going out on the spur of th emoment or enjoying a quiet dinner at home. But it's not like we're enjoying it now, with the assurance that in so many months or years, we will try to get pregnant and *boom* nine months later our lives will change. No, there's just this big cloud of uncertainty, and we can't even plan for when our lives are going to change, because they may never change, but they will also neve be the same - never the carefree, fun-loving, easygoing existence of the deliberately childfree.

It's a funny situation we're in. I feel like if we lived in a yeshivish/black-hat/super-frum/charedi/whatever-you-want-to-call-it type of community, and after x number of years of marriage we didn't have kids, there would be some kind of understanding that it wasn't on purpose. People would know we were having problems (even if they didn't officially "know") and would be appropriately deferential. Or, at least, they would understand that we wanted children and our non-parental status was not by choice.

Our religious community is different, though. It's "modern" (if you want to use that term). Almost everyone in our synagogue is college educated; many have or are working toward advanced degrees. Many, if not most, of the women my age work outside the home, and in fields where it would be likely for them to remain employed once children arrive. I'm pretty sure most newly-married couples use birth control for six months or a year, and a good number probably longer than that - hey, we did - even without the requisite heter (dispensation from a rabbi). Overall, the concept of a couple in the 25-35 age range, married a few years, both parties working, no kids...it's not so unusual here, and it's not clear that we're not childfree by choice. But I feel like the presumption that we choose to be childfree - the thought that we've been using birth control for more several years, that we're evading our obligation to build a family - goes along with a negative judgment on our suitability as members of the community. Every time I go to shul on a Shabbat morning, I want to hang a sign around my neck that reads: "Trying to get pregnant, twelve months and counting." I'm no one of "them" (as much as I don't think there's anything wrong with "them") and I want everyone to know it.

The worst part is that I can't wear a sign like that, and I can't go around telling everyone that we're infertile, because who wants to hear something like that? So I laugh off the comments about enjoying our childfree days. I talk about my work and how excited I am to be looking for a new job (more on that another day, I think). I toss back a couple glasses of wine during a dinner and then pour myself a generous Scotch and joke that I'm "drinking for two." I tell people that Ezra's sister is expecting baby in the spring, and go on and on about how lucky I am that she gets to be the "guinea pig" because she's having the first grandchild. We put our breakables on low shelves and store cleaning agents under the sink. In all ways, I try to make it seem as if I love my life.

And all the while, my heart is breaking. I can't enjoy even one moment of it, and all I see lying ahead is day after day and year after year of spare bedrooms and three-drink dinners.

Labels:

At 1:54 AM, January 15, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

I was much the same. I kept telling people, it's not that I need a baby this very second... if I knew I was going to have one in a year, or even two, I'd be fine. But not knowing if it's ever going to happen? How would that be enjoyable, exactly?

People understand the kind of hardship they've experienced, but they can't really imagine the kind they haven't. That's why I think writing about it is so important.

 
At 7:39 AM, January 15, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

I find the opposite comments just as hard.
New father BIL keeps telling us we should have kids, it's wonderful blah blah blah.

Besides revealing our IF, there is no response that will shut him up. Awful.
And I'm not confident that revealing IF will do the trick either.

 
At 9:31 AM, January 15, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

And I'm not confident that revealing IF will do the trick either.

It probably wouldn't. I speak from experience (my dad).

 
At 1:09 PM, January 15, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I did the same thing, pretending how much I loved my life, how great it was not to be "tied down", and all that when we were TTC our first for 16 months. And every one of those months is one more month I wished and prayed and cried for the chance to be "tied down". But, as I don't like talking about IF to casual acquaintances, there wasn't really anything else to do.

You know what? We've now been TTC our second for 14 months and I still do it. I pretend that we love being a one-child family, that it's great to not have to worry about midnight feedings anymore. And I cry frequently, probably more so than I did before I had our first, because I'd give anything to be getting no sleep and have no time to shower.

I wish there were some advice to give, but all I can say is to do whatever helps you through the day.

 
At 10:49 PM, January 15, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not sure if this will help, but in the hopes that it might be worth a chuckle, or at least the hint of a grin, what about responding to "enjoy it while you can" with "did you ever try telling that to a 2 year old at naptime?"

 
At 9:08 PM, January 17, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

Fortunately (?) we don't get comments too often. Usually we get the "do you have children?" comment and when we say no (I've stopped saying, "not yet, soon, G-d willing" or anything like that. It's just "no"), after the obligatory, "soon, G-d willing" (argh), that's usually the end of it. But then again, nearly everyone knows we're going through infertility stuff. We've been very open about it, which was difficult *during* our first cycle, when people repeatedly looked at us with the "nu?" look.

I'm sorry your Dad hasn't been as responsive as you'd hoped.

 
At 2:28 AM, January 19, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't know, but maybe you should question whether your way of dealing with this is really helping you or not. Is it creating more internal stress and strain to do all this pretending? Is there a balance you can strike between being totally open and letting it all hang out vs. pretending that this is the life you've chosen for yourself?

I talked a lot to others about my infertility, so it was no secret. In a way, I regret that I was SO open. However, I would never have found it helpful to allow people to assume that I was happy about my childless marriage.

Only you know what feels best, but I just couldn't handle the pretending. It takes too much effort! Plus, you don't get any understanding or empathy from anyone, and probably a fair amount of judgment (as you've found).

I think it is always hard knowing how to deal with community in these situations. I've stopped talking about our infertility, but when people ask if we have children, I still say, "we hope we will" and leave it at that.

 
At 10:25 AM, January 20, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the past, when faced with such serious problems that are out of my control, I have looked to davening and increased tsedakah (both financial and otherwise). Though this is unusually traditionalist for me and does not necessarily have any direct affect on the source of my grief, I have felt that it provides for a positive, constructive outcome of my sorrow.

 

Speak up!




Thursday, January 05, 2006

The Search Continues

I almost titled this post "The Search For Spock," but then I realized that the rabbi we are looking for: (1) need not be a kohen, and (2) also need not be dead and then brought back to life - in fact, probably should not be. Logic would be good, though.

Aaaaaaaaanyway. I finally spoke with Rabbi V on Monday evening. Ezra spoke to him first actually, but for just a moment when he (Ezra) picked up the phone, and not about the topic at hand. I then spoke with Rabbi V for about five minutes, first re-introducing myself (I had had a few interactions with him a few years ago and thought he might remember me) and then telling him, briefly, our problem. He sounded receptive to helping us out, and I started to bring up specific concerns. He heard that our RE appointment is over a month away and suggested a contact to help us "jump the list"; I refused and instead started to bring up specific testing concerns.

Rabbi V didn't have much time to talk and told me to call again early next week, but in the few responses he did have (regarding my preliminary PCOS diagnosis and my concern about the permissibility of a semen analysis for Ezra)...well, they worried me a bit. I can't really put my finger on why, and it could have been only that the conversation was rushed (to be fair, he didn't know why he was calling me when he did, and so couldn't plan for a certain amount of time set aside for us). Still, I'm concerned. I have since heard from someone on the A TIME boards that, as of several years ago, Rabbi V had refused to work with at least one couple on IF issues, but it was unclear whether it was because of Rabbi V's possible inexperience in the area, or some personal issue with the couple, or something else entirely. Whatever the case, it's starting to worry me, almost enough to outweigh the benefit of having had prior positive interactions with Rabbi V.

Several people from the A TIME boards have recommended another rabbi, who I shall temporarily refer to as Rabbi W (I'd better not add more than three rabbinic candidates to this list, eh?). Rabbi W lives in a somewhat distant city - not too much farther than Rabbi V, but not somewhere I'm likely to ever meet him in person, either. Beyond the recommendations from people I don't know, and the fact that he is listed on A TIME's rabbi page (whereas Rabbi V is not), I know nothing else about Rabbi W. I can't decide whether to try to contact him or, to be honest, what I would say.

I am also considering contacting our synagogue's rabbi (hereinafter Rabbi A) for his opinions of Rabbis V and W and/or his recommendations of other rabbis. One big advantage is that, unlike the A TIME people and others who have made suggestions, he knows us (or at least the relevant aspects of us) fairly well.

But there are a few concerns here. We have never made it clear to Rabbi A that we are dealing with infertility, or even that we are actively trying to have a baby. Our community has a considerable number of childless coupels our age, and it is possible (if not likely) that many of them are (temporarily) childless by choice. While I have a decent relationship with Rabbbi A, Ezra does not interact with him one-on-one very often. With Rabbis V and W (or just about anyone else), I can explain the situation without fear of making Ezra uncomfortable, because it is unlikely that the other party will ever encounter my husband, or draw the connection, unless we want him to. But with Rabbi A, the connection will be obvious, and Ezra will see him on a regular basis for years to come. While such a thing, to be honest, would not bother me all too much, Ezra is a fairly private person and I am pretty sure this would make him uncomfortable. Finally, I am worried about offending Rabbi A, either if he suggests a certain rabbi (dare I say "Rabbi X"? - nah) and we make a different choice, or if he suggests himself (something we know we are not comfortable with for a variety of reasons, thoguh on the other hand this is a very remote possibility).

At what point do we become committed to one rabbi over another? At what point do their responses become practical and binding rather than theoretical? And at what point did I sign up for all of this headache and heartache?

Labels:

At 2:13 PM, January 05, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wouldn't go to Rabbi A if you think it would make your husband uncomfortable.

I'd also be reluctant about proceeding with this first rabbi if he is already making you feel uneasy. But are you already committed to his psak since you have spoken to him about your problem? Someone once told me that I should have other people ask questions for me, or, I should ask the rabbi a "theoretical" question rather than ask for a specific decision, and either option saves me from being bound to follow his decision.

I don't have a sense of where you fall out on the Orthodox spectrum, or who you would be comfortable with. My first rav was a haredi from Monsey but as I said, I am concerned about going to him now. He was very knowledgeable so it's a shame. The second rabbi we consulted with was more Modern Orthodox from PUAH. In both cases, I was given some leniencies, as was a friend of mine who is also older. I have heard that the rabbis really soften up for us old ladies, since we are so desperate, but that they are sometimes slower to give heters for young couples.

Good luck to you. I know how hard this is to navigate by yourself. But you will find the right rabbi and once you do, you'll be so relieved!

 
At 2:28 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

I have heard that the rabbis really soften up for us old ladies, since we are so desperate, but that they are sometimes slower to give heters for young couples.

I'm not allowed to be young and desperate? Since when?

 
At 3:28 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

I think, unless you got farther than I think in the first conversation, that you're probably not bound by anything Rabbi V said yet. If I were you, if I was going to talk to him again, like Wessel I would be very careful to say that this is an exploratory, theoretical conversation, that you're still in the process of trying to find a rabbi whom both you and Ezra are comfortable working with, and that -- if he's open to it -- you'd like to hear how he generally approaches this situation before you ask for a personal psak.

And then I would try to pay careful attention to what is making you uneasy: is it his attitude to infertility vs. halacha, his sensitivity or empathy, the sense that he is likely to have some major disagreements with you down the road... what?

But I have to say, if it were me I might not try again just on the report that someone else had difficulty working with him. You don't need any more roadblocks in this process than necessary.

I was lucky in that I had multiple confirmations that my rabbi was a good person to work with. He's widely respected as a posek on T"H and other things, and many people I know, trust and admire are his students. My only doubt was whether he was an expert on infertility, and a few comments from other people - together with the referral from our former rabbi, who is from a very different part of the religious world - erased that doubt.

In all my interactions with him, both before and after infertility, he's shown a striking ability and willingness to see things from our perspective, to step outside the accepted way of looking at things and realize there's a time to go out on a halachic limb. For me that was crucial, and I think I knew that very early on, although I might not have been able to articulate it.

I guess some of my urging that you try him comes from the hope that you would be given all the same leniencies I was. :) But to you some other aspect of feeling comfortable might be more important than the specific rulings you get. Some of the recommendations from Atime sound like they might work out fine.

And keep in mind that you're not locked in to Rabbi V or anyone else forever, so other than some delay and aggravation, it doesn't hurt to go with your gut and try someone out. If he gives you a specific psak, yes, you'd be stuck for that instance, but if you're consistently coming away uncomfortable and unhappy you could find someone new for any questions after that. With infertility there's (un)fortunately a chance to re-ask the same question nearly every month...

 
At 3:42 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Mindy, maybe it depends how much leeway there is in your circle? For example, if you know a semen analysis is only permitted via collection condom, no matter what, there's a lot less to ask.

In our case, however, the SA psak depended on a whole bunch of things: how long we'd been trying, what order the doctors wanted to do the tests, how aggravating the method turned out to be, how much trouble our insurance was giving us with it, etc. etc. I think we called the rabbi two or three times just for that one question.

Then there was IUI before mikvah, selective reduction, whether different procedures made me a niddah, discarding embryos... again, if you know the ruling on these issues is always the same no matter what your individual circumstances, there's nothing much to ask. We didn't have to ask these questions so often, but we knew the potentially different answers we might get could make a huge difference in our lives.

 
At 3:56 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

Erm. Good luck? :-D

You didn't sign up, I believe it was your mother's, mother's, mother's, ... mother's, mother. Or was it her mother?

 
At 8:26 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

rb, the only reason I would suggest you talk to Rabbi A would be if you have a strong sense of community with your rabbi. We wanted our Rabbi A to know what was going on because we wanted him to be prepared for anything that might come up, and we wanted to know we had a support system in place (someone we could turn to for spiritual support if a cycle failed, for example).

It was very emotionally helpful to us to know that our spiritual leader knew what was going on with us. If you're going to be using another rabbi for fertility halacha, then the only reason to tell your Rabbi A really would be if you want that spiritual support at your "home base."

Good luck; I hope you find a rav that you and your husband can be comfortable with and trust. It's so important to have that comfort level.

 
At 9:04 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger Finding My New Normal said...

Good luck! As if dealing with infertility itself isn't enough...oy! I hope you find the one you are looking for.

 
At 9:38 AM, January 09, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think that you're ever bound to the p'sak of any rabbi these days (we don't have a Sanhedrin, the rabbinic link from Moses has been broken, etc.). You are bound to halacha and G-d's definition of morality ... rabbis are a useful crutch to provide the relief of knowledge and education from doubts and uncertainties. That's all.

 

Speak up!




Wednesday, January 04, 2006

The Third Wheel

It's bad enough for most infertile couples, this loss of privacy in what is, for many people, the most private activity they will ever engage in: conceiving a child. Tests, drugs, monitoring, procedures...someone else telling you that you're pregnant (or not), insurance companies deciding whether they'll help you pay for what most people get for free.

Infertily and Orthodox Judaism? Now you're really having fun.

By request of Lut C., here is a pretty good starter explanation for my readers who are unfamiliar with the issues. The short story: as with just about everything in life, Orthodox Judaism has rules about infertility tests and treatments, and corresponding loopholes and leniencies to help people navigate the rules as needed. In order to navigate, though, you need yet another fertility expert: a rabbi. Not just any rabbi, but one who is very familiar with fertility issues. And not just any rabbi familiar with fertility issues, but one that you and your spouse can actually communicate with.

Because it's not like there's some blanket rule for every situation - just about everything is open to interpretation, and where Rabbi X will permit a semen analysis by standard sample collection, Rabbi Y will require a collection condom and Rabbi Z will say no to any semen analysis whatsoever. This rabbi allows donor egg; that one does not. The trick is finding the rabbi whose rulings will be more or less in line with your own views, and whose methodologies and phiosophies make you most comfortable - but doing so before you actually know what decisions he will make.

Granted, in the end the decisions are your own. But we, like many other Orthodox couples, choose to make the religion, its rules, and the guidance of its clergy, a major part of our lives. A governing part of our lives, in fact. And if that means adding another person to the gaggle of experts, advisors, overseers, and hangers-on who will be involved in ou reproductive endeavors, then so be it.

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At 9:06 AM, January 05, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't want this to sound confrontational, but I have a question about this process of finding a rabbinical tagalong for your fertility treatment.

You say that rabbis have different ideas on the "rules" regarding testing and treatment and that you have to find one who works with your (plural) mindset.

How is this different from cafeteria Catholics? If you're picking someone who agrees with you, why bother at all? It sounds like you are just shopping around for someone to justify or validate your choices.

Again, I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just not understanding the need for this role.

 
At 11:07 AM, January 05, 2006, Blogger Robber Barren said...

ejw - I could be misunderstanding Catholicism here, but the main difference is that the Catholic hierarchy all points to the Pope and the Vatican, which sets or adjusts the rules for an entire generation. On the other hand, Judaism, even the apparent monolith of Orthodox Judaism, is pluralistic in the interpretation and practical application of the laws. One of the most widespread (and well-known?) divisions is between Ashkenazi Jews (those of eastern European descent) and Sephardi Jews (those of Spanish descent, though this term is often used as a catch-all by Ashkenazim for Middle Eastern and Persian Jews). The views of the major decisors for each of these groups, passed down through the years, can vary widely on matters such as whether women are allowed to make certain blessings, what foods are and are not permitted on Passover, or the required period of niddah separation. The strength of following one's own heritage is such that, in many circumstances, an Ashkenazi rabbi (for example) would tell a Sephardi congregant to follow a particular law that runs contrary to that rabbi's own observance, or to consult with another rabbi.

Now, the type of selection I'm talking about here is not as pronounced (though, to be sure, if we followed Sephardi rulings a primary concern would have been to find a Sephardi rabbi), primarily because many of the issues of concern are relatively recent developments in Jewish law, and also in part because new methods of communication mean one is no longer bound to ask all questions of one's local rabbi.

I could go on about differences, in theory, but I'm having some difficulty articulating it. It's one of those things where, when you live the life you understand it completely, but explaining to an "outsider" is suddenly very challenging. Perhaps one of the other O.J. IF bloggers could step in and help me here?

As for this question: If you're picking someone who agrees with you, why bother at all? - It's really not that simple. The (Jewish) law in this area is very complex, and rulings for specific issues for specific couples are almost always based on the particular circumstances of the situation. Factors such as what tests have been performed, what treatments have been used so far and for how long, whether either partner has any other children...these all can have an effect on whether a particular test or ART procedure is acceptable or not under Jewish law. The average Jew is not expected to understand all the complexities - even the average rabbi is not expected to. Going to your local congregational rabbi (as knowledgeable as he may be about the laws of Sabbath observance) with your infertility questions would be akin to asking a criminal defense lawyer to handle your divorce...he may be able to hack through it, but you may end up with lots of cookie-cutter paperwork and he'll probably have to consult a lot of other lawyers along the way.

 
At 12:39 PM, January 05, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

EJW, think of it this way: Catholicism is more like a benign dictatorship, where laws are set by the dictator and no challenges to it are allowed. The pope is "infallible." If someone wishes to go against the ruling set by the dictator, he will have a dilemma. If he goes against the law, then he will be in violation of it, and must make a decision about whether it is worth it to him.

Judaism, historically, functions more like the Supreme Court, with various Justices rendering decisions on complicated laws. It has always been that way, and our Talmud is based upon explanations of disagreements between ancient Torah scholars over various issues in the law.

As for being a "cafeteria Catholic," there are some Orthodox Jews who would agree with you, but only in certain situations. I will try to explain.

Most Orthodox Jews have identified a central halachic (Jewish law) authority that they follow in ALL matters. This person is usually someone more prestigious than their local synogogue rabbi. Chassidic Jews have a "rebbe" who serves this purpose as well. However, there are halachic authorities who will yield to other halachic authorities if the latter has more experience in a particular area, say, medical ethics. Rabbis can, in effect, specialize in certain areas of the law, much like attorneys and judges do in our secular system of government.

In general, an Orthodox Jew would not feel it appropriate to "shop" for a rabbi who will render a decision that they want. However, I'm speaking here about more common, usual matters. When it comes to infertility, there are relatively few halachic experts. So most Orthodox Jews wouldn't be able to turn to their main halachic authority for infertility matters, because he wouldn't be specialized enough in that field.

It is sort of like having a family attorney, one you go to for a wide variety of legal needs. It would hurt his feelings if you went to another attorney for just any old thing. However . . . if he is not qualified to represent you in a certain legal matter, then everyone, including him, would expect you to seek an expert. Now that you are free to seek an expert, you can "shop." And no, that doesn't make you a cafeteria Jew!

Where it can get tricky is that sometimes, your regular halachic authority may point you toward a halachic infertility authority who will not give you a decision that you prefer. This happens a lot in the ultra-Orthodox or Chassidic world, where you are expected to seek a "specialist" within a narrow group of like-minded authorities. If you go outside of that group, you may be perceived as being a cafeteria Jew. But in reality, according to our Torah, it is permissible to seek a decision from any halachic authority you choose. What you are NOT supposed to do, however, is go to one rabbi for a decision, then turn around and go to another rabbi with the same question if you didn't like the first decision, and then another, and then another. That is not allowed. You are obligated to accept and respect the decision of the first rabbi you approach. (Someone correct me if I am wrong about this, because I think there may be some exceptions to this rule.) In this situation, you want to make sure that you don't go to a rabbi who will likely give you a decision you feel you cannot live with. So you have to ask around and find out by word of mouth what a rabbi's position is on a certain thing, like, say donor egg.

Hope that helps.

 
At 1:47 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

EJW, I think you picked up on the first half of Robber Barren's sentence, and missed the significance of the second: "The trick is finding the rabbi whose rulings will be more or less in line with your own views, and whose methodologies and phiosophies make you most comfortable - but doing so before you actually know what decisions he will make."

When an Orthodox Jew "chooses a rabbi who is likely to be in line with our own views", we're talking about the broad strokes. Although all Orthodox Jews are committed to traditional Jewish law, there are very real differences as to how those laws are applied in different segments of the community: RB talked about Ashkenazi vs. Sephardi. There's also modern Orthodox vs. Chareidi vs. Chasidic. There's also personal factors, although those are more difficult to articulate: one rabbi might be more likely to take a hardline approach than another, even within the same community.

So ideally you need a rabbi who is appropriate to your own philosophy in the broad sense. As a fairly modern Jew it would make little sense for me to consult a Chasidic rabbi: although his rulings have halachic validity, they would not fit with the rest of my halachic lifestyle. But within the modern Orthodox world, it is perfectly acceptable for me to pick any of the major rabbis. And it's perfectly acceptable to do so by any criteria: his publicized views on infertility treatment, his personal phone manner, or even his reputation for being strict vs. lenient.

The thing is, once I pick him, I'm going to stick with him -- and again, I can only know the broad strokes of what he's going to say beforehand. The whole reason we need a rabbi in this area is that the laws are too complex for a layperson to navigate without years of study and experience. We might pick a rabbi because we know that under at least SOME circumstances he believes a semen analysis is permitted - but we don't know in advance what those are. We will be consulting him to find out when and how we are permitted to carry one out, and we will generally consider ourselves bound by all the details of those rulings. Each of us has had the experience of being told we can't do something we wanted to do.

That's not to say people never switch rabbis when they run into a broad position they can't live with - but if they do, they stick with that rabbi from then on, and they follow whatever further rulings he gives them. It's never just a "tagalong" to what you've already decided you're going to do.

There's a principle in Judaism that there are at least seventy ways to interpret the Torah, and each of them is the word of Gd. As Orthodox Jews we do have some freedom to pick one of the broad approaches out there based on what feels right to us. But once we do that, we need expert help to make sure we are carrying out that approach with integrity to the sources. That's where a rabbi comes in.

I hope that helps.

 
At 3:03 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Oops. Just realized it sounds like I'm challenging Wessel on one minor point -- I didn't mean that it would be unacceptable to consult a rabbi outside my own corner of Orthodox Judaism, just that it's unusual to do so.

But yes, as you get to the more and more specialized questions (whether it's a complex medical question or a complex emotional situation), there are so few rabbis with the required expertise, that it certainly happens. And there's nothing wrong with that. The ruling of any properly trained rabbi is religiously valid.

 
At 3:43 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

I can't add to the explanations already here, because they're brilliant. I can only add my personal experience: my rabbi has no experience with or knowledge of the halacha relating to infertility. My husband and I asked others in the infertility world for recommendations for a knowledgeable rabbi. We made sure to only ask people whom we felt had halachic views much in line with ours. We received the name of a knowledgeable rabbi and after some discussion with our rabbi, our rabbi agreed that we should use this recommended rabbi as our halachic authority for infertility.

None of this is done in a vacuum. I really liked the analogy of the lawyer; works for a doctor too - a good GP would want you to see a neurologist if you suffered nerve damage.

That was a great question; I appreciated being able to read everyone's responses to a difficult issue.

 
At 3:47 PM, January 05, 2006, Blogger Lut C. said...

First, I want to thank you ladies for taking the time to explain this.
I live in a city with an old Chasidic community (if you really want to know exactly where, please ask me by mail). Except sharing the train or metro with them, I have no personal contacts with these communities.

The idea of having an authority like a rabbi make such far reaching decisions in my life is foreign to me. Not that I think that I make al my decisions independently, not at all. The sources that influence me are just very diffuse, I suppose. The IF blogosphere is one such source, for instance.

With regard to Catholicism, I agree it is a dictatorship, but I don't think it's that benign. This is my very personal opinion, but I find the Churches policy on birth control, and specifically on condoms, very very wrong. The Vatican has a campaign to spread the message among Catholics that condoms don't work and that it's a mortal sin to use them. Meanwhile, an Aids epidemic is wiping out entire communities around the world.
Tell people to be faithful to their spouse, fine. Tell couples to procreate, fine. But even if extra-marital relations are a sin, even a mortal sin, surely using a condom when doing so is the lesser of two evils. After all, the whole ideology of the Catholic church is built on the idea that people are sinners, no matter what. So tell them they need to go to confession after using condoms, but don't discourage their use!
Honestly, I don't know how the Pope can sleep at night. How he can rhyme this with the commandment to 'love thy neighbour' I don't know.

Ok, I'll stop ranting know. My country used to be a predominantly Catholic country, and its influences can still be felt now and again. Practicing Catholics are becoming rare, however.

 
At 6:51 PM, January 05, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A very insightful discussion as to why we consult rabbeim 'at all'. Thank you robber barren, wessel, persephone for the clear insight and ejw for posing the question! I've been looking for a way to word this and you have done perfectly.

Thank you.

 
At 10:46 AM, January 06, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the explanations. The lawyer analogy was great and made it much clearer.

I must say that Judaism sounds like a great way of thinking. I love that there's 70 ways to interpret the Torah and they're all God's words. What a breath of fresh air after 18 years of hard-line Catholicism being crammed down my throat.

 

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Monday, January 02, 2006

don't wait by the phone

So, by mid-afternoon I finally worked up the guts to call Rabbi V. So I snuggled into Ezra's arms (the better to get some moral support) and dialed - and the line was busy. Try again five minutes later - the line is still busy. Pull out the clinic intake forms, figure out what additional family medical history information we need, try calling again - still busy. Guilt myself into davening mincha. Try again - hey, at least it rings this time. But we got the answering machine. I left a message with precisely the wrong amount of detail (though at least I remembered to speak our phone number slowly). Now, after about two and a half hours that feel like an eternity, he still hasn't called back.

Really, it's no big deal. It's not like the guy has a baby hidden away in his bookcase for us. For all I know, the extent of his involvement will be telling us to call another rabbi. But I just want another phase, no matter how small, to be over with.

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At 7:33 PM, January 02, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So sorry that you've had to join us in the infertility blogosphere. Hoping that your stay will be short. And that the Rabbi calls you back soon.

 

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Sunday, January 01, 2006

Hello...? Can you help me?

So, tomorrow I think Ezra and I (or maybe just...I) will be calling a rabbi. We're going to need a rabbi to help us along this infertility journey, and though I have no way of knowing who the perfect co-traveler would be, I've had a few people recommend Rabbi V.* Rabbi V is not local, but I have asked him niddah questions in the past, and I know that, generally speaking, we can communicate. Everyone I know who has interacted with him has only glowing recommendations, so that's definitely a plus. But here's the thing...none of these recommnders have been dealing with him on infertility specifically. Granted, one of the people who recommended him was a rebbetzin, a very close friend of mine, married to a rabbi who really should know who's who, so that's a good sign.

I have asked around the Jewish IF world, just a little bit, for other rav recommendations. I've gotten other names - actually, no one mentoned Rabbi V. It's a little worrisome, but a littel voice deep inside of me says to trust my rebbetzin friend and to trust my prior experience with Rabbi V. I figure that Rabbi V is at least learned enough and modest enough and practical enough that if he knows this isn't his bag, he's steer me in the right direction.

And, hey, we have a month and a half to go until our first appointment. That's plenty of time...right? RIGHT?

* Nope, not even close to his real name. maybe I'll come up with a catchy nickname for him.

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At 12:20 AM, January 02, 2006, Blogger persephone said...

Well, conventional wisdom is that it's crucial that your rabbi be expert in the area of infertility. But I agree, if you trust him, hopefully he's the kind of person who will be honest with you and himself if he's not qualified.

That was how we ended up with Rabbi X, by the way. I thought we would consult him for our niddah questions because that's what he's best known for. But then I took kallah classes with someone else, and then we switched to someone who had a closer relationship with my husband, and that was fantastic for a while. But then - when the IF questions started heating up - he said to us "This is really not my field, but have you heard of Rabbi X?" Full circle. :)

 
At 2:47 AM, January 02, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

When we were first embarking on diagnostic procedures, and then later DE, I spoke to a Rav who is well known for his knowledge of infertility, science and halacha. I was very impressed with his knowledge and felt comfortable with his decisions. But now he has fallen into disrepute over an unrelated matter, and we didn't know what to think, but decided it best not to continue consulting him. We then contacted a rabbi at PUAH institute, where we got some of our most pressing questions answered.

I would be uncomfortable going to a rav unless I knew that he was an expert in infertility. I also needed to know that he viewed DE favorably.

 
At 6:55 PM, January 02, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i can't comment on the IF field but in my searching for a rabbi, my experience is to please follow your gut instinct. you need to feel comfortable talking to him, it doesn't matter how "highly recommended" he might be, if you can't comfortably talk to him ... how can he help?

 
At 9:45 PM, January 02, 2006, Blogger projgen said...

We actually had problems with our rabbi in terms of IF knowledge. He wanted to do all the research and learn about the halacha re: IF, which is great, in general, but we didn't have the time to wait for him to learn. And he wasn't looking for authorities for assistance.

We finally contacted another Orthodox person going through IF and asked for a rabbinic reference. We were put in touch with fabulous Rabbi Y who is an expert in fertility. We gave his information to our rabbi, but when we realized that our rabbi still wasn't going to go to an outside source to assist us, we went directly to Rabbi Y on our own.

Rabbi Y was a great help to us. Basically, I say go with your gut. If your rabbi is coming up with answers and you feel comfortable, stick with him. If you're getting funny vibes, keep looking. Having an authority who knows both halacha and infertility well is crucial to your peace of mind!

btw, we dealt with Rabbi Y strictly over the phone, long-distance. Geography shouldn't matter ;)

 

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Thursday, December 29, 2005

Publicity! *squeal*

After a spectacular introduction by persephone, it appears that I really do have readers! My stats have skyrocketed (not hard, considering that last week my readership numbered in the single digits) and I'm actually getting comments! And I'm on other people's blogrolls! Wheeeeeeeee!

And then...and THEN...I got a link from Mayim Rabim! ProjGen is there too...go us! Double wheeeeeeeeeeeee!

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At 12:12 PM, December 30, 2005, Blogger Pamplemousse said...

Hey, welcome!!! Looking forward to sharing your journey but I am afraid that I have been on this path too, too long ;

 

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Sunday, December 25, 2005

Treasures

This past Shabbat, at the kiddush after moning services, I held a friend's baby. Not for a minute or two or five, but for a good half-hour, walking around the room, giving the mom a chance to eat with her hands free and happily shmoozing with a bunch of people. I laughed off a good number of comments: "Hey, he looks good on you!" "You hold that baby so naturally!" "I'm gone for three weeks and come back to THIS?" The kid cooed and giggled and pulled at my necklace and generally did all those cue things babies do. I joked that I was going to bundle him under my coat and take him home (but return him to his parents in time for his bar mitzvah of course - that's one party I'm not paying for if I don't have to).

It all would have been a very pleasant experience, but for one thing. As she handed the baby over to me, the mother, who knows that we are just starting to deal with our IF problems and was infertile herself for some time, whispered, "It's a segula,* you know. For having a baby."

Yes, I know. I was tempted to respond, "I hear sex is a segula for getting pregnant, too, but so far it hasn't worked for me." I bit my tongue, though, and smiled and took the baby from her arms, because, dammit, I wanted to hold him anyway, because he's CUTE. As for the segula - as far as I'm concerned, it's superstition, plain and simple, and rarely if ever has any place in Judaism. I know segulas make other people happy, and it's not my place to tell them it's "wrong" to think that way, but I must say I wish they'd stop trying to impose all this segula-ness on me. Particularly when "they" is someone who has been in my shoes, who must know that even the most well-intentioned comments can be surprisingly wounding, and that you never can tell how something will sound in someone else's mind. Or maybe I just give other people too much credit. Maybe she just assumes that whatever comforted her soul will comfort mine as well.

* segula - lit., "treasure" - an action or behavior, like wearing the now-trendy red string kabbalah bracelet, that is supposed to have the power to bring about a certain effect

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At 7:54 PM, December 28, 2005, Blogger projgen said...

Oh, I am so with you on this whole segula thing. Especially the mikvah one - immersing immediately after a woman who is 9 months' pregnant. Yeah, 'kay.

And as for holding babies, if one more person tells me, "it's good practice for you" I'm going to scream. I've been practicing for 30 freakin' years - I babysat A LOT. I could probably teach that person a thing or two. I love holding babies; isn't that why G-d made them cute? ;)

 
At 2:02 PM, August 24, 2006, Blogger Ms. Perky said...

I know I'm reading this about 8 months too late, but I'm just catching up on your archives and this post struck a chord with me.

I think that the segulah-offering habit of Orthodox busy-bodies is one of the most isolating things in the Orthodox community.

I'm so tired of being offered kvater, of being told to eat the heels of the challah on Shabbos and at simchas, of being told to daven more or longer or more sincerely.

I'm so tired of it, because the implication is one of fault. That it's because I haven't done these things that I'm not pregnant, as opposed to just having ovaries that refuse to cooperate without medical intervention.

This is, by far, one of my most frustrating peeves about the community.

 
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